cheesygirl

Humperdinck: "Now, if we only had a wheelbarrow..."

"...that would be something!"

I look at previously unmentioned assets in Doctor Who...with an eye to storming the castle of dimensional retroclosure.

Assets...we should be listing.

Fob watches. Time Lord essence can be stored in a fob watch device. It can be stolen away. Therefore...it is not an intrinsic thing. In the Christmas Invasion and in Human Nature...there was the presented idea that this essence could be used as a power source by another species. Also, we know it is not intrinsic to Gallifreyans. We know that there are Gallifreyans who are NOT Time Lords...one of them married the Doctor's all too human companion, Leela. If Susan was the Doctor's granddaughter...biologically Gallifreyan...and we have no canon reason to doubt she was...she married David, a human. Jenny is biologically a Gallifreyan...two hearts...but she's not a Time Lord. Because becoming a Time Lord involves sharing...pain, memories...history. Sort of like Ten and Ten 2 share...history, memories and pain.

The Master married a human woman...but then, the Master fails to regenerate. Maybe he couldn't...maybe he wasn't a Time Lord anymore.

Handy Spare Hands. The handy spare hand was in the Master's possession at a very crucial time...just after he, the Master, had regenerated. So, should he have cut off his own hand...he, too, would have a handy spare hand. Also, the mystery of why the Doctor was toting around a handy spare hand, is still a mystery. You can't say it was so RTD would have it later. The Doctor must have had a reason for keeping it close. One thing we know it does is get excited about other versions of the Doctor close by...it got all worked up over Jenny in the time stream. Maybe the Doctor was using it to avoid himself. Or maybe he had some real use for it...like creating a controled, rather than instantaneous, biological metacrisis.

Biological Metacrisis. We think we know what this is. We got a spare Doctor from the spare hand. And for a time we had a Doctor/Donna and it was good. But there has never been a human/Time Lord metacrisis...why? "Because there can't be." Why? Because it will kill Donna...she will burn, the Doctor tells her family. Why? Because her brain can't handle all of that knowledge, apparently. However, Ten 2 has a Time Lord mind and so, HE can handle things. Why? Uhm...this is where we start all of our assuming. Because we don't know why Ten 2 is human enough to die and not regenerate, but at the same time Time Lord enough to think big thoughts. This is because we don't know anything about biological metacrisis. It's something that has happened before though...just not with a human.

The Master: Nobody in fandom questioned the return of the Master. We all knew he was dead. Had to be dead. All of the Time Lords are dead. Also, he was a corpse before the Time War...and a plasma snake creature...and...ashes. And he just keeps renewing himself. The Master always comes back, just like the Doctor always wins.

What does he tell the Doctor? "The Time Lords brought me back, gave me a new set of regenerations and made me fight their war."

And we all just nod and think...okay! Nobody in the fandom balked. Nobody asked, HEY! HOW DID THEY DO THAT? How did they bring him back and give him a new set of regenerations? And if they did that...is he STILL The Master we knew from before the cancellation? Well, of course he is. But he has a different body. Is he the Master in the same sense that Ten 2 is The Doctor? If Anthony Ainsley's Master goes through some sort of time loop of evil and meets John Simm's Master...are they essentially the same man in different bodies? How is this switching of bodies different from regeneration?

Let's say you're the Master...and you mean to survive any encounter with the Doctor. Wouldn't it make sense to arrange your own biological metacrisis...using Lucy Saxon in the same way that Donna was used...to create The Master 3?

Imagine all of the youthful vigor of humanity combined with the Time Lord mind. He's faster, smarter and more ruthless than the Master of old. Because look what Donna had to say about how the Doctor's thinking was limited...how he needed that human spark...she was solving all his problems at hyperspeed. Can the Doctor beat this hybrid guy? Or will it take Ten 2 (Let's just call him Eleven) to beat him? Given the choice of living the life he wants, or even living on beyond his natural death after 13 regenerations...Ten would certainly not sacrifice Donna Noble.

But...given a far greater threat to the universe...a Master upgrade, if you will...and a Donna Noble already burning by having her memories triggered...Ten might be willing to Time Lord up Ten 2, give up his Time Lord essence. Ten 2 then becomes the next generation Doctor aka...Matt Smith.

Or...you know...it's just done with that psycho-graft thingee of Cassandra's that allows body swapping. I'm saying we can get Ten 2 to take over the job of universe saving...and send Ten to Rose. But then...that's what I'm always saying, isn't it? :grin:

But, you know, I always return in my mind to that point where Doctor/Donna tells Ten 2 that he should, "Wait for the Doctor." And Ten 2 says, "I am the Doctor." Obviously, the Doctor/Donna does not view herself as The Doctor...but as some sort of bridge being that is predominately still DONNA. Ten 2, however, has no problem at all self-identifying. Makes me wonder if he believes Ten is "The Doctor." And like I've always said...if Ten 2 believed Ten wasn't the Doctor...what would he do about it?




Rae
Again you managed to make my head explode.lol Still I love the way you think. I smell a pony. I will say what the now ex-boyfriend said, if RTD doesn't bring Ten to Rose you might as well have watched one of those stupid reality teen things on MTV because it would've been just as pointless. Hopefully RTD doesn't have the Moffat bug and sits back and laughs because we thought there was a point to his nonesense.Like Andy Kaufman and his reading of the Great Gatsby who the fuck is he really entertaining then? Himself?
For the sake of art, it needs some kind of point. Otherwise, its dribble like so many shows out there. Why build up with no climax?
I cannot answer this questions, Princess...
For the sake of art, it needs some kind of point. Otherwise, its dribble like so many shows out there. Why build up with no climax?

Because I just feel that is lazy storytelling. And in some people, well, I accept that it's the best they can do. But RTD...he can do better. The very fact that he knew exactly what was wrong with the end of Journey's End. That he knew he was asking Rose and Ten to step out of character simply so he, RTD, could have a neat ending, tells me that he is capable of giving us a satisfying ending.

I agree, that if the Doctor comes to that point where he is afraid to do something...where he says, this will never be...then the show has reached a creative end. RTD could have said that the Doctor didn't need or want Rose...but that's not what he said. He is asking us to allow that the Doctor is defeated by his own insecurities. Because, as I've often said in these rants of mine...there is no earthly reason why Ten couldn't just spend 100 years with Rose and then come back to this dimension an hour after he left. That's the beauty of interdimensional time travel.

So...when people start whining about how Rose can't ever come back, loving her ruins the Doctor or there is just NO WAY to solve any of these problems...I just want to sit them down and number the ways. I've not got about a dozen.

Happy to have made your head 'splode. :grin:

Rae
imaging the Master gloating as he explains all this to a flabbergasted Doctor.
there is no earthly reason why Ten couldn't just spend 100 years with Rose and then come back to this dimension an hour after he left. That's the beauty of interdimensional time travel.

Exactly!
This is very easy from one point...
...RTD made it much harder than it needed to be. It could have been as easy as Mickey imagined it to be. Or as Donna imagined it to be. Donna thought she and the Doctor would buddy up for time/space fun and company. And there was really no earthly reason why Ten couldn't have simply trusted Donna and Ten 2 to look after the universe while he spent some time with Rose. Since Ten 2 and Donna were both human...there would be a logical expiration date on the vacation time.

But, of course, written into the substructure of the show is the idea that humans just aren't up to the task of self-governing...that the Doctor has to make decisions FOR them. So, there is no way he could trust Donna and Ten 2 to do anything like watch the universe. And to think...at the time of JE...they would have had all that help...Sarah Jane and Jack and Martha and Mickey...surely all those people could have watched over the universe and the TARDIS for a bit. But no...it has to be Mr. Lonely God.

Rae
Re: This is very easy from one point...
Yes, that's what I hated - it all traps humanity in relying on the Doctor to get out of messes, and that seems a very odd position for an athiest to take. Compare it to His Dark Materials, and you'll see what I mean. That ends with a Republic of Heaven, not a kingdom, and with two young humans making the decision to stay in separate universes for ever, even though they love one another and they could cheat and stay together. They do the right thing with no supernatural coercion at all.

I think if this scenario of yours has one fault it may be this, that it's so beautifully thought out. RTD is quite capable of ignoring the most obvious and ludicrous plot holes, and saying things like, "Daleks always come back, because that's what Daleks do!"
I do over think these things.
Because I am looking at the puzzle pieces and finding ways to make sense of them. And, as you say, RTD would probably not do that. He has shown us via his book that he has an idea somewhere down the line and begins to place foreshadowing snippets into the storyline. So, he does think things through. And he's capable of taking pieces of pre-cancellation canon and using them in his own world building. But I do wonder if he would look at his own work with the same critically distancing eye that we would use.

So, mostly likely he's not looking for a coherent solution to his problem of the wrong Doctor with Rose...but is instead looking for a quick fix. "Rose comes back to the Doctor, because that's what Rose does." :grin: "And this time he goes with her and Ten 2 stays...how can I make that work?"

There are a number of ways to do just that though, as we have discussed over this long year. So, I think, even given a myopic view of the RTD years, it is possible to have our Pony!

Rae
who honestly doesn't believe the Master scenario is what we will get...because...it's too ME!
Even the Doctor won't live for all the Earth's time
I'm thinking the Doctor is an over-protective parent. The Earth is quite capable of defending itself, but the Doctor doesn't want to let go of his adoptive home. Hopefully, Rose and Ten 2 returning will prove that mortals can defend the Earth, because it happens in parallels, so he'll be more willing to give up the day job.

I can see a reason why the Doctor didn't go off with Rose and leave the mortal Donna and Ten 2 to look after the place. As far back as School Reunion, he lamented that he regenerates and goes on, and he couldn't bear to see someone he loved wither and decay. In Lazarus, he said he was tired of losing everything that mattered in his long life. If he keeps his regenerations, this curse will continue, so he can't go to Rose for her lifetime and then come back. This is why the swap of minds works, with the added bonus of 'dream of a normal death.'

The meta reason why the Doctor can't swan off for an unspecified time is, the mechanism will be abused in the future. If he can do it for selfish love, why can't he step out and come up with a non-time restrained solution to bad guy plans where everybody lives? Moffat blagged that the TARDIS had to stay put during tGitF because they were part of events. Someone obviously neglected to mention that to the opening of Fear Her when the TARDIS just turned around on the spot! But the Moffat thing is blagging - I'm sure he meant to say "The Doctor is an unreliable driver, and might land before the current time and screw things up, or land too late." Otherwise, Rose could never visit home because the lands in the same vicinity and time wouldn't be possible. What would stop the Master from hopping in his TARDIS to have time to think of a foolproof plan? It's just unsafe territory.

Lisa
Hoping the Doctor cleanses his Lonely God aspect
Maybe if I type the Master thing it'll make sense
So, the Master travels from the end of the universe to contemporary Earth with the Doctor's hand in tow. He decides to chop his own hand off during the first 15 hours of his regeneration cycle. He jigs the Saxon ring to siphon off Lucy's life essence... she'll go looking for it because it's part of her, but it also contains the subliminal message of 'put it on the severed hand.' The Master does get shot during his reign, but it's to prove that he's immortal so no-one else hopes to try it again. He diverts his regenerative energy into his handy spare hand. The hand then gets put into... Lucy's house or somewhere only she would know on the ground. Cut to the season three finale, where the Master dies either by choice or otherwise. Lucy picks up the ring off the pyre, puts it on the severed hand and the Master is reborn as John Simm. Only he has no care for Lucy and continues to draw all her life force to fully restore his immortality, killing her. The Doctor is instantly aware of another Time Lord on Earth.

... I think I'll stick to my fob watch consciousness swap and subsequent storage. :lol:

If the Doctor had made any attempt throughout the season four finale to keep Ten 2 and Dona separate to save Donna, I'd be happier to think this. At the moment, I'm thinking IBM is safer amongst Time Lords because they have a lot of 'spare' energy bestowed on them, and they have mental training to protect themselves from... backfire. Donna said it was a two-way BM, rather than it being the expected/normal outcome. Ten 2 said he was unique to be a human hybrid IBM. I'm figuring because he was made from scratch that way, and regenerative energy is designed to keep conflicting things together as you change every cell, that's why he's okay. Donna, on the other hand, had a Time Lord mind grafted onto her body, much like River Song downloading the library into her head. Neither could survive that. It's an organ transplant gone horribly wrong.

What worries me more about Donna's state is the weather... Davros triggered the dormant Time Lord mind with a zap of electricity. If there's a thunderstorm - and there was atmospheric disturbance as the Doctor left her - the electricity in the air could wake the memories up again. Poor Donna.

I'm loving the creative insight, though. :) I just wish I had better health to compute it.

Lisa
My first thought is some things shouldn't
...be reduced to initials...as BM and IBM sound like unpleasant intestinal conditions. :grin: My second is I think you made my theory even more complicated than it already was and that's saying something.

The story goes like this...the Master sees the Doctor's hand...and having already been revived in this manner by the Time Lords...realizes he can possibly recreate those same circumstances and even thinks that is WHY the Doctor has a severed hand. Because Metacrisis is a common thing among Time Lords...or if not common...possible. So, yes, he cuts off his hand as soon as he gets to a place of safety and he locates Lucy, a willing test subject.

Ever notice if Lucy was wearing a ring? A wedding ring? That you remembered the zap of Donna is good. Lucy is still Lucy until she's zapped. And the Master is the Master...which means he doesn't need to control her from beyond the grave but only make a Masterful suggestion to her mind to shoot him should he ever get caught...then take his ring to his severed hand.

And yes, what I mean is that the metacrisis is going to drain Donna's life away. And the Doctor is concerned from the very first moment about Donna. His is the decision to go to Bad Wolf Bay...and Ten 2 looks very storm about that. However, it is possible...that is because Ten is still feeling the drain of his energy through Donna. He knows what is happening before anyone else does. He knows that Donna isn't in a happy place at all but is breaking down and will be sucked away. And yes, you have it exactly right...it's not lethal to Time Lords because they have so much life energy to spare.

Rae
who does believe that the fob watch is easier to understand...this idea requires the Master to explain his diabolical plan and mock the Doctor for screwing up his own stab at it.



My thought is,
Where does the Master's regenerative energy come from? He's a pile of ashes, save for the hand. He had 15 hours of his regenerative cycle in Utopia to siphon it off into storage. Presumably, that energy is in the ring. I'd be fascinated if we saw the rest of the TARDIS at some point, and discover a metalworks for forging special jewllery. In 15 hours? I can appreciate putting the Lazarus enamel on later, because that's surface detail, unless it's necessary code for life energy. But I hope the Doctor would have recognised such Time Lord coding in the Lazarus episode logo; symbol of his guilt-trip lost people and all that. Please help my brain understand. :)

I'll have to rewatch Journey's End, to pick up the Doctor's reactions to Donna's condition. I'm surprised that Ten 2, who was in Donna's head reading her thoughts and feelings, didn't take it upon himself to stay away from her if he knew he was harming her. I doubt he'd have such joy if his existence meant his twin's death. I doubt he would have objected to being in a parallel world to protect Donna. But, I will rewatch it to see who is noting Donna's wellbeing and when.

Lisa
Nine months later, we're still discussing it :lol:
The stormy look
I've put myself through rewatching Journey's End.

I personally haven't noticed anyone show concern about Donna's state of mind until we get to the scene, "It's time for one last trip." Jackie, Donna and Rose stand looking aimlessly. Ten 1 shoots Ten 2 this glance when he says BWB in Norweigian. Ten 2 gives a stormy look in return.

It's a very justified stormy look. In the first instance, there are no further trips beyond the one to BWB... no treatment options for Donna being considered. In Ten 2's mind, his twin will die on the TARDIS without people there who understand her and respect her wishes. Ten 1 has prioritised dealing with his love life over Donna's well being.

In the second instance of the stormy look, Ten 2 knows the domestic situation being considered will trap him, because Ten 1 has issues about outliving those he loves and seeing them wither and decay. As the mortal, Ten 2 gets to convince Rose to stay put, despite the fact he knows she won't settle. Not the most enviable of tasks.

I'm concerned what it says about Ten 2 as a character if the continued life sucking from Donna were true. At the moment, I'm theorising a scenario akin to Rise of the Cyberman, where the Doctor gave ten years of his life to bring the TARDIS back to life. The majority of the regenerative energy went to the hand, and it just needed a few years off Donna to reach the critical point to make a new life, albeit mortal.

If the continued life sucking were true, the stormy look takes a dark turn. If he was prepared to sacrifice Donna's life and individuality, to absorb her to complete his metacrisis when he can hold his own, makes him the Master in my eyes, not the Doctor... his prolonged life at everyone else's cost. I personally wouldn't leave that sort of man alone with Rose, because he can manipulate her emotionally to get her life force from her...

Rose: "What are you building?"
Ten 2:"This? Oh, dimensional canon."
Rose: *beams*
Ten 2: *hides plans of life sucker in drawer*

However, Ten 2 did still walk out of the TARDIS rather than being physically dragged... if he knows to save Donna means being in a parallel (or maybe Rose makes his attitude "better"). But it undermines the Humperdinck somewhat. If either Ten 2 or Rose break the walls down, Donna will fall apart again. Rose will hate Ten 2 if he thwarts her attempts to poke holes. If he explains why the walls have to stay closed, she'll either stay put (unlikely) or demonstrate that her love for the Doctor is more important than the lives of innocent people.

How would the Doctor react to that? The Doctor sets up this delicate scenario, only for it to be sabotaged and undermine everything he'd hoped to achieve. How could RTD justify the real Doctor going off with Rose? It would be like the Doctor would have to babysit Rose so she didn't threaten other people's lives. It would be compulsory rather than voluntary... very unsatisfying.

I can't get my head around an existing mechanism of Ten 2 sucking all the life out of Donna. It keeps things as they are, rather than allowing for an epic resolve.

Lisa
Wondering what part of the puzzle I'm missing
You are trying too hard to make it diabolical
I'm saying that Ten works it out...just about the time that Donna is going on about how great her brain is...and the only reason HE works it out ahead of the others is that he's been thinking of creating a metacrisis of his very own for a time. I don't think anyone knows what it will do to Donna...but Ten does show some signs of it...as he rushes to separate her from Ten 2...and also...as he stands there staring glumly into space as Donna programs the TARDIS to go to their next location.

Before Donna starts to meltdown...Ten asks her some tough questions...like..."How do you know that? How does that feel?" He obviously knows she's dying before she starts to go funny in the head. As you say...Ten 2 doesn't seem to think she's in any danger...neither does Donna...when they are on the beach. But TEN...knows before it happens. Even if we follow all your lines of reasoning...how did TEN know it was all going wrong?

Ten works out that Donna isn't going to be traveling the stars with him...and so, in the scene that RTD cut...he was flat out lying to Rose about not being alone, because he will have "madam." Also, Donna goes on in that scene about how she and the Doctor are going to be together forever...very sad and a clear sign she saw nothing coming. Did you see the point where Ten 2 acknowledges THAT? I think it could be in the cut scene...another stormy exchange of looks between the boys.

I feel what we could have here...is Ten 2 thinking he could be the new Doctor...and Ten is going to go with Rose. Donna thinking she and Ten are going to travel together...and Ten 2 is a gift. And TEN...knowing this is all going wrong and he must quickly separate Donna and Ten 2. But I am not sure if Ten figures anything is wrong until Ten 2 blows up the Daleks. At that point, he sees that Ten 2 is not an exact copy of him...but instead has some instability. I would imagine the Master/Lucy version would also have some instability.

If Ten 2 understood Ten's motivations (assuming they WERE an urge to separate him from Donna...we must realize that this isn't canon, of course, and they need have no reason behind their actions at all...except RTD wrote it that way)...at the point where Donna says, "Tell her," then he really had no choice but to play along. He wouldn't risk Donna, as you note...though I don't really see it as a risk...but as a sort of creation of a new being. Donna would live on as the heart of Eleven. But I can readily see Ten and Ten 2 feeling separation was the best of all worlds...since it led only to their own misery. But...it might not be the best thing for everyone.

I think when Ten 2 walks out of the TARDIS...he has the air of a man who is visiting...he looks about...he listens politely to news of the baby. I think he might be thinking they are just dropping off Jackie. The earlier stormy look could have been suspicion...which is what it looked like to me. A sort of sense he had that Ten was up to something.

Anyway, don't worry too much about the theory...as RTD would probably never do anything this tied to reaction shots. I'm only saying that you could provide a real storyline explaining how the Master comes back...and tying up the Ten/Rose/Ten 2 loose ends at the same time. Basically, it is based on nobody really knowing how a human/time lord metacrisis would work...and the Master going there first. I don't think the Doctor believes the Master is alive at this point. I don't think he's really thinking ahead...only reacting to developing circumstance.

Rae
Also, if we assume this is all in progress...
...rather than something firmly decided...then we may not have all the puzzle pieces, yet. But more importantly THE DOCTOR may not have them all. He does know Donna is going wrong in the head...before she shows any obvious sign of it to us. Therefore, something she said or did prior to that moment...let him know.

It is possible he did what he could do in the moment...and after he chats a bit with the Master...he could come up with a better idea to solve any design issues in his haphazard plans.

Rae
thinking if the Master is in the mix at all...he will set new events in motion that will force Ten, Ten 2, Rose and Donna to improvise new solutions.
My head is going the same way Donna's did!
It's a sign of a poor ending when we're discussing it as much as a Moffat episode, with too many gaps in information to make a definite and satisfying conclusion.

On a slight tangent, Moffat would never be allowed to write an episode of Jonathan Creek. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the series. I recently brought a DVD because Matt 'the real Captain Jack Harkness' Rippy was in it, though I'd watched the series before. I'd forgotten it was produced by Verity Lambert for the second season! The beautiful thing about the episodes is that they make your brain hurt with its complexity and supposed random tidbits of information, but everything - and I mean everything - is resolved by the end of the episode.

My brain has figured so far... that this life sucking idea has more to do with justifying how the Master does what he does, rather than justifying what happened in the last fifteen minutes of Journey's End.

If the Master does the meta crisis 'right' and totally absorbs Lucy, I wonder how RTD would pull off making it okay for the same thing to happen to Donna. We say it would be beautiful for her to be the second heart of Ten 2, that she chooses to do that. But, surely Lucy made the same choice? Is it beautiful that Lucy is absorbed by the Master? Or do we think Lucy isn't well enough into making a sound choice? But the same thing could be said of Donna's sanity now she has the Doctor's mind clouding her judgment.

I think it's a shady line for the supposed hero who's taking over saving the universe to tread.

Lisa
Holding her simple fob watch in the face of Rae's complex thoughts
So...uhm...explain how this fob watch
...idea works? We take the Doctorness out of Donna...and then...we...convert Ten to human form? And somehow transfer the Doctorness to Ten 2?

Rae
thinking we might also get a Caves of Androzani...everyone living happy lives flash as Ten regenerates...and no pony at all. SIGH!
As the Doctor once said to Latimer
It is just a fob watch that I hold, one of four that I own. It's a security blanket, a simple prop when I dress up and fashion myself as a different person for a while, before I return to my normal existence. :lol:

I am tickled by the idea that we'll get a flashback of the Master's funeral pyre as part of the happy sequence. Or better yet, the Doctor decides to do the Master's bidding just to be with him, because all of his companions 'have someone else.' Or goes off with the Master because the sequence of companions is dire, and he figures he can't do any worse if he follows the Master's example/can blame the Master and avoid responsibility.

Lisa
Can't fit a pony in her human science fob watch
You cannot seem to fit the Master in either...
...though it could just be that he's hiding out again. In my theory...the Master is upgraded for the new age...and so...the Doctor must upgrade as well. Also, really, I have the Master as the villian of the piece...giving us our happy as a default. So, the Master explains metacrisis to us...and gloats a bit...and threatens Donna and Martha...and starts the final countdown on Donna again. The Doctor simply realizes that he's finally been defeated.

Only...no...because Donna, Rose, Martha and Ten 2 can save the day.

Rae
I apologise profusely if
... I have discouraged you from the Humperdinck cause. Journey's End wasn't the end of the story, because the people on the show are better than that, given time and good health.

I just can't stop thinking about things through as much as possible. It's something I've done all my life. In my single digit years, a good friend of mine would have an idea, I'd see if it was feasible, and if it was we'd embark on it together. Given how much we've torn the finale of Journey's End apart to see what went wrong, somewhere in the back of my mind wants to make our Humperdinck withstand any criticism.

I don't have much hope about the Master's life mechanics. Even RTD didn't bother with strong background for the Master... he was a classic baddie that most fans wouldn't question, as with the Daleks. Rose, however, was RTD's creation, and we've seen the love story arc be consistent throughout RTD's reign. It was just the last bit broadcast that wasn't up to standard. We know it, RTD knows it. If he has any sense, he'll fix it. Hold onto the hope when he looked profoundly at the origami missive.

Lisa
You could not discourage me...
...though Jan would thank you if you could. Probably some other people would thank you, as well. :grin:

I do not hang much hope on my theory, not because it wouldn't work, but because it would require a lot of work from RTD. And the odds of him doing that sort of work are slim...so the fob watch does cover lots of ground. But the essential conversion to human part...with anmesia...could be problematic...and it is hard to see how it fits into things...what the motivating force is for the switch. If Donna starts to burn...yes, I see some motivation for fob watching the Time Lordliness out of her.

And if she is better...Donna might harangue the Doctor about Rose. Or get into some trouble with Martha Jones. I really don't see Donna wanting to travel with him after what he did. But I also don't see him motivated to change his ways for no reason. It would be much harder to convince the audience that he simply decided to change his mind...that takes character insight that they obviously lack, given how many broad hints we have that he loves Rose Tyler, and how many people miss that.

Like you...I hold onto the hope that RTD knows the ending wasn't up to his standard. Also, beyond that, he knows the Doctor wouldn't leave Rose and Rose wouldn't leave the TARDIS or fall in love with Ten 2. And once you have gone to the point where Ten 2 is Doctor enough to be good enough for Rose...then...why can't she have the man she loves? Just fix those minor problems with Ten 2 and switch Doctors.

Was his look really profound?

Rae
Profound as in
... it was just him and the folded paper in the world. Like Donna hearing the heartbeat. I'd had a dream about it, years before. When people ask, "Do you believe dreams can come true?" I say yes, but probably not in the way you mean! These dreams are important for the life path that I'm on. I dreamt the events before and after meeting David Tennant, and lots of little things since. Combined with the coincidences. Maybe the timelines are converging.

Lisa
Has extreme giggle fits that Rae found me on messenger
I believe I lost you on IM
My computer is acting nuts. And it keeps bleeping and stopping. If you really are talking to yourself...I must say...I was typing away on my end...and getting no response...so something is wrong.

Rae
I think wires were crossed
I didn't get anything from you on my end after me saying Verity Newman.

I am in the process of coming offline and going to bed. Feel free to email me or continue the comment thread. :)

Lisa
Heading for dreamless sleep
Lots of things were going wrong on my end
I had to completely restore my computer and buy a new virus program. So...now things...hopefully are back to normal.

As for the things I was saying in chat...I see the Donna sacrifice as an unfortunate and unexpected result of something the Master has done.

Positive points for my theory...but which would indicate RTD was planning this all along...just before the Master dies...he's on the floor and behind him is the bubbling hand in a jar. He also eggs Martha's mom on to shoot him...and says, "It's always the women!" and "I win!" Now, all of that we can put down to his crazy brain and gloating...but...still...there is Lucy looking all out of character and what exactly happens to her?

You asked...why the Doctor doesn't sense the Master after the metacrisis...and the simple answer is that the Master 3.0 is not a Gallifreyan Time Lord anymore...but is instead one of the new breed. This also answers the question about why Ten 2 might come back even if it means Donna dies...he might realize that HE was sensing something. Or, he might not sense the Master 3 until he was complete.

I see the scenario of Donna death going down much against the Doctor's will. But Donna will have been living with the idea of burning to death all episode. See? If I was to do this story...I would have Donna burning and some sort of Torchwood headband jiggery-pokery delaying mechanism on her so she can think but grows more incoherant as the episode progresses.

The Doctor is desperately trying to save her...during the episode he figures out that the Master has done his very own human/Time Lord Metacrisis. Now the Master is still insane but cleverer than the Doctor. He wins. The Doctor is defeated. Donna is dying. Hopelessness reigns...10 minutes to regeneration.

All of the fanbase is thinking the Doctor will give one of his final regenerations to Donna to save her somehow. But Donna or Martha thinks of Ten 2...maybe he could think of something...something the Doctor had overlooked.

"We have to go back to Norway," Donna says. "Or wherever they are now."

"Don't you think I want..." The Doctor begins passionately, but reins himself in to finish, "We can't go back there. Didn't you hear what the Master said? If we do you will die."

"I'm already dying," Donna says in exasperation. "This magic circle won't keep me going much longer."

"There has to be another way."

"If we don't do something soon, everyone will die, Doctor. You can't win this alone. But you could find him, wherever he is, the other you."

"Even if I could, the walls of the universe are closed."

"The Rift at Torchwood can be opened," Martha says.

"And anything could come through," the Doctor protests.

"Something worse than Saxon and Saxon?" Martha asks, with an eye roll.

"Oh, you have no idea what we might unleash."

"I do," Donna says soberly. She moves closer, takes the Doctor's hand. "I know you are trying to protect me, but this is my choice. I made it a long time ago. You've given up so much to keep me safe...it's time to let go, Doctor. One song ends and another one begins."

"Saxon said Lucy was still alive in him," Martha reminds them. "His second heart."

"Shared memories, shared pain," Donna says, nodding. She meets the Doctor's eye. "Isn't that what a Time Lord is?"

"I never wanted this, I only hoped...one day..."

"...you'd be free to go home?" Donna finishes.

They hold each other's gaze until he sighs, "Yeah."

"No time like the present, space boy. Allon-ze!"

He grins and flips the mobile phone at Martha. "Make the call to Torchwood."

Cut to lonely stretch of beach where Rose is pacing and Ten 2 is looking out to sea.
If only Freema Agyeman hadn't gone to ITV
... snubbing their plans to film Martha working for Torchwood. Freema and one of the Torchwood writers switched channels to work on Law & Order UK. Probably not the wisest decision in the world on their part, because income is guaranteed at the BBC through the TV license, whereas ITV relies on advertising revenue that dries up in a recession. Martha probably still works for UNIT, though. It would explain the Sun's rumours not including John Barrowman and Noel Clarke.

If only we had a clearer idea how metacrisis worked, too. My brain is very slow figuring how the Master does it without setting off another regeneration off-screen in the Year That Never Was, which is a bit cheating to the audience. In Utopia, he went the whole hog, healing wounds and changing bodies. We know in the first fifteen hours of regeneration, you can grow at least a hand back. If there was enough energy in those fifteen hours to have a metacrisis, he still has to forge the ring in fifteen hours to store it.

I once had a fic idea of TCI being more gruesome, that the Doctor was chopped in half, but both halves grew back. The Master could have done that in those fifteen hours, but then you'd have two Masters there and then; one mortal (the legs) and one with regenerations (the head). But is it Masterish they would agree that one rules while the other goes into storage? I don't know enough about the character to say.

There's just too many unknowns for my poorly head, a complaint I normally level at Moffat.

I'm okay with Donna dying and being absorbed by Ten 2. I don't think the BBC would be, though. There's a lot in the news over here about assisted suicide clinics for physical illnesses, and the state of dementia care. If you are deemed mentally ill over here, you have no legal say in your mental health treatment. Doctor Who may poke fun at American Presidents and military organisations having majority power, but I doubt they have the confidence to touch on such a sensitive subject so close to home. Which is a shame. But it would be an epic ending if they went there.

I've got a pondering about your well crafted theory. Ten 2 gets Donna's heart, so he gets regenerations? Ten 1 still has his regenerations, too? Doesn't that mean Ten 1 still has his huge problem of outliving Rose by a huge margin? Should we worry... if the Smith/Moffat reign fails... that people will call out for the Other Doctor? People complained of Rose's shadow lingering over Martha's stint as the companion, and it wouldn't be nice for fans to wish for Tennant to return before Smith/Moffat have gotten started.

Lisa
Too many unknowns for my poorly head
Nope...he was on Earth longer than 15 hours
It was 15 hours from when the Trio returned to Earth...but, if you remember, the Master had time to marry and run for office. Plenty of time to figure out his change of body plans. In fact, given how brilliant he is...I would say he just used that time to ensure his resurrection. He probably planned it the minute he saw the hand.

Even though Martha is with UNIT she did go off with the Torchwood people, so she could make a call...but okay...AltRose worked with UNIT on alternative dimension hopping...so maybe the UNIT on our Earth is also into that.

Knowing the Master...he would not create another him immediately...that would allow for competition. No, he would store the necessary energy...rather than allow another self. As you say...as it is all unknown...it's really an open book for any writer. If RTD doesn't address it, someone else will one day.

And no...in my well crafted plan (snicker)...Ten gives his regenerative energy AGAIN...to restart the process through Donna. In my original YIM dialogue this explanation went much better...but I was trying to recreate it and forgot a few lines. So Donna doesn't just burn up (and if we really want to save her...maybe Ten can use the remaining 2 regenerations...one to finish the metacrisis and one to restore Donna).

But in my version, it's sacrifices for everyone...Ten gives up his life as a Time Lord...so that Ten 2 and Donna can take over in one body. Donna is like a bridge...sort of like she was in JE...remember that bridge of life energy that created Ten 2?

And no...I really don't know why people believe Gallifreyans outlive Humans. It's never mentioned in any of the marriages. And we clearly see that the Doctor ages and withers when forced forward 100 years. We must remember that at THAT time...he could still regenerate...so he didn't die when pushed to 400...but he certainly withered. Also, we see in that same episode...and in a few others...that Gallifreyans have a choice about dying. They can die...they just don't. I think when Rose died...so would the discarded Ten body.

Rae
The missing link
... of your story plan, Ten 1 regenerating to complete the metacrisis in Ten 2 and possibly save Donna to boot. I now understand your theory. :)

The origins of the Master metacrisis continue to elude us, but that's for the character to explain. My mind is stuck with needing to be in a regeneration cycle - that 15 hour window. If the Master used the regeneration cycle started in Utopia, he had 15 hours to build the ring to store the energy... no mean feat. Otherwise he'd have to trigger another regeneration off-screen. Which, if the Master explains that, would give Ten 1 the know-how of completing Ten 2, saving Donna and ending up with 100 years left to live. Namely, using up his remaining regenerations.

He'd just better stay away from hospitals in his domestic life because they'd find his pure Gallifreyan biology very interesting. And the Asprin allergy thing. But his descendants have faced that, too.

Lisa
OR...he stored his regenerative energy...
...in the fob watch he already had...does he destroy it? Can't remember. But the Doctor's TARDIS would help him...also...I don't think he needs to store the regenerative energy right away...after all...the Doctor didn't. All he has to do is cut off and regrow a hand in the 15 hour window. Then throw his regeneration energy into his ring when he's shot dead.

And yes, I do think if the Master comes back...he will explain all.

How about Lady Christina actually being the Master? So we start all this in the Easter special?
And answer that question about them being male or female...well...no...because that TOO could be a post-chimera experience.

Rae
Now, You've Done It!
I have defended my theory so religiously that I now want it to be true. Probably, most likely, it is nowhere near what will happen. I really think RTD is not the sort to have a complex plan. I thought he was because he understands the shape of stories and how to foreshadow successfully. But it seems he's much more of a fly by the seat of your pants writer than I am. I never go out on a story limb without working my way through the loopholes and explaining them.

Yes, the Doctor in my Wild Geese series is THIS Ten...he's given up his Time Lordlyness...and is a Gallifreyan. He's mostly retired...which is something we've never visited in canon. I mean...could you STOP being a Time Lord? At one point FIVE almost loses his power to regenerate. Tegan asks him if he can still regenerate and he smiles and says, "I am a Time Lord." Which would possibly indicate that that is what MAKES him a Time Lord...the power to regenerate. A power we now know he can remove at will or chose to NOT use.

Rae
who feels that if Lady Christina IS the Master...then we will have John Simm in Flashback...but I feel if my theory is anywhere close to right...we will need John Simm to explain it...thereby showing that Ten 2 can be the Doctor.
The Master hears drums
... and you hear the sound of humperdinck.

Can't you hear it?

Humperdinck humperdinck humperdinck

I'll try and put it as four syllables so we can have the same beat as the Master.

hum-per-din-ck :lol:

I can calm your theory down, if you like. All this speculation comes from the Sun. Not the most reliable of sources. Said paper claimed John Simm was filming Doctor Who last September when I was in Cardiff. He wasn't. He just happened to be filming something else in the vicinity of normal Who filming. Tennant was obviously in Stratford and Piper heavily pregnant. The Sun will say anything, and can get away with saying contradictions because their readership has a three week memory span.

The Writer's Tale shows us that RTD is a seat of his pants kind of writer. If the Master was a feature of all 4.5 seasons, I'd put confidence in your theory happening. Sadly, he's not. Rose and the Doctor are, though, so that should be resolved. The Master as the baddie of the week, with his coming back to life tendencies, merely proves that regardless the body it's still the same man. The mechanic justification is 'Time Lord science.'

Lisa
Defender of the Faith
More detail on the profound look
The bit I'd dreamed was RTD safely stowing the origami missive in his briefcase. If you watch the videos on YouTube of the booksigning, when RTD receives a gift he has that gushing exuberance of thank yous before handing it to the bouncer to add it to the pile of gifts. Our gift stopped him in his tracks, had a very calm and serious "I'll read that later" before securing it in his briefcase.

At the time, photos with him weren't allowed. The bouncer told us to shift, but RTD actually said to the next person in the queue, "Oh hang on, they are having a photo with me" and posed.

So yeah, profound.

Lisa
But having Ten and TenII swap places means having TenII want to leave Rose. With the way it was left in JE, I just don't see that happening.
Well...that's one perspective on canon events. There are others. Personally, I saw nothing in canon to convince me that Ten 2 wants to stay with Rose.
If we were to believe that Ten II is enough of the Doctor for Rose to love him, then he should be enough of the Doctor to love her, as well.

I'm not saying I'm buying that. I'll never feel satisfied with Rose being okay with having Ten II and letting the REAL Doctor be alone/without her in the other universe (I could go on and on about this, but I think we're like-mined here), but it feels like that's where what we were supposed to be at the end of JE. But if Ten II has the same memories as him, and thinks like him, why wouldn't he feel like him as well?
You will have to tell me the point where Rose says she loves Ten 2. And well...Ten 2 may think like him and have the same memories...but he quite obviously does not feel the same. Or he wouldn't have destroyed the Daleks, would he? Also, he never says he loves Rose...he says he can stay with her if she wants...and he tells her what Ten was going to say (he would KNOW this, of course). Knowing is not feeling. And the very fact that Rose wrenches free of their embrace and runs after the departing Ten...saying, "No!" Shows she didn't just decide she loved Ten 2 in that five minutes she had to choose.

Sorry, I do not buy the argument that Ten 2 and Rose are in love. That they could possibly fall in love...I will grant to some writers...but that is as far as I will go. Personally, I am in complete agreement with Russell...when he says, "There is no way Rose would ever love Blue Doctor."

Rae
It is also interesting that Ten never assumes Rose will love Ten 2...Donna...who is not aware of what is going on until later...tells Ten 2 to tell Rose what him staying means. And Ten tells Rose that it is her duty to help Ten 2..."You have to" he tells her, because Ten 2 is "a cost" for saving the universe. He also tells Rose that Ten 2 "needs you and that's very me." Need is not love.

And, if you ask me, that kiss was what kisses are for...to see if that was really the Doctor...it wasn't...she pulls out of it and runs after Ten saying, "No!" And then Ten 2 takes her hand in his...and she shifts her hips away from him...then they look at one another.

None of that says they are in love.

Rae

I am not trying to talk you out of your belief...
...that Rose loves Ten 2...because I think that when RTD wrote the beach scene he was hoping to make your take on things follow that line of reasoning. Maybe he's still counting on everyone filling in all of the blanks. But that isn't what he films...or, more importantly, what he edits to, truthfully. And he actually talks about how wrong it all is...that beach scene...in his book, "A Writer's Tale." And how he hoped to fix things by making it about Rose having "choices."

But he really doesn't give her those choices. And he gives Ten 2 even less choice. Go check out the footage...of Ten 2 at 51:24 as the Doctor tells Rose that she's "got to stay in the parallel world" and why. Ten 2 is not happy with this arrangement. "You made me." He says...as if Ten made him on purpose.

However, what are his options? He can't just take the TARDIS by force...Rose, Ten and Donna would stop him. And he only has this human body...so...he makes the best of it all. Watch that little shrug he gives when he tells Rose he can spend his life with her...if she wants. Compare that attitude to Ten's attitude earlier in the episode upon seeing Rose. Ten 2 is not happy...and Rose is not happy.

And I think it is a huge stretch of the fandom's active imagination to think they will ever be happy. You can't just go back and recreate a love. If they'd had the TARDIS coral...maybe they could travel and find some of the old magic...but to recreated it on demand? Seems like a long shot. Remember how the Doctor gave Joan Redfern this same offer? And she turned him down? For that matter...Rose is given the same offer earlier in Journey's End...when the Doctor doesn't regenerate. I mean, he looks the same, right?

The Doctor goes on to clearly illustrate the difference in feelings between him and Ten 2..."full of anger and revenge...that's me when we first met...and you made me better." Yes, she did. But what if she had been given the TASK of making Nine better? Rather than just traveling with him and falling in love naturally? What if Nine had still been out there somewhere when she was asked to go on with Ten...would she have gone on with Ten? Same man?

The idea that Rose and Ten 2 are in love...is a fandom myth...not a canon reality. It is a myth that is helped along by the confidential kiss that is on so many icons. But that kiss never happens on screen...what appears on screen is very non-commital. I understand why the fandom has created this alternative reality of Rose and Ten 2 in love...because without it, the actual ending sucks. But since RTD knows that it sucks...since he knows that he tried to force Rose and Ten out of character...that there is no reason at all that Ten can't stay with Rose other than in his own words, "I didn't write it like that"...I have hope that he will fix this.

Rae
Re: I am not trying to talk you out of your belief...
You got me completely wrong.

I was saying that Ten II and Rose being able to be in love was what we were supposed to come away with, not that that's what I had come away with, or even what I would want to have happen.

I'm GLAD RTD knows and has said that's not the way it would or will go. It's a piss poor excuse of an ending, and, quite frankly, insults our (the fan's) intelligence and dedication to the characters. I don't know a single fan who believes Rose and Ten II would work out. At least not without inventing an elaborate extra-canon explanation as to why and how. Which isn't our job as fans. If it didn't work with just what we were shown on screen, it simply doesn't work! What I felt was that that was what we were supposed to take from it. Rusty was saying 'This is how it is and it is how it is because I say it this is how it is' instead of somehow proving it in canon.

Basically, I'm saying anyone who DOES believe in Rose and Ten II being in love is deluding themselves.


I hope I've been clear enough. I've been really sick, and I think it's hindering my clarity.
My apologies...I did misunderstand
...your position on this.

Sadly, that is because, unlike you, I know many, many, many Doctor Who fans who appear to be perfectly satisfied with the ending of Season 4. And even more who say "Well, it was the best we could hope for...after all the Doctor and Rose can't really be together. So, let's make the best of the end of their character integrity."

It's as if shippers feel a coherent storyline is impossible on series television. And I do wonder if that is what we are left with as a conclusion. I wonder if I should just give up, as so many of my fellow fiction writers have, on the format.

The focus of series television is to keep us watching...not to satisfy. They keep creating mysteries and sowing seeds of dissent rather than solving anything. That's the whole point of Unrequited Sexual Tension...to string the audience along for as long as possible and sell more product.

It's as if television writers feel if they finish a story, they risk losing their audience..."Yeah, keep them on the line as long as possible...then, if you start to lose them or have to write an ending, slap any old thing together...what the hell...you're never going to see these fans or characters again, right?"

The only problem with that in Doctor Who is that we ARE going to see the Doctor again...and having him look like coward or a serial Lothario isn't sustainable. Also, I think that RTD would be very disappointed to know that his finale was the reason any of us gave up on series television.

So...yes...I do think that RTD is going to give us a more satisfying end to the Rose/Ten love story. The only question I have is will it be what I consider "the proper" ending...that Ten and Rose get their lifetime together in some fashion. People are, of course, sure that won't happen...because they think they know what happened in Journey's End...but there are a lot of loopholes in that finish. And RTD has had almost two years to write something better.

Say it with me..."Nobody wants socks for Christmas. We all want a pony. Pony! Pony! Pony!"

:snicker:

Rae
who will encourage you to follow the Humperdinck, Humperdinck, Humperdinck tags to see some comments by perfectly satisfied (but in my view) self-deluding fans.
Re: My apologies...I did misunderstand
I've been kind of out of the loop for a while, so I guess I haven't been getting the whole overview of fandom. Have to say, I'm glad it seems like my friends are on the 'This SUCKS!' bandwagon, or else I'd be doubting their sanity.


To be truthful, I never wanted Rose to come back in the show proper. It's like having UST: the payoff is never as good as you want it to be. I'd be perfectly happy if she never came back again. Not because I don't want them to be happy, or for that story to have real closure, but because I know it just won't be as good as it should. LE proved that point for me, as does almost every single long-running show which resolves sexual tension in the main romantic leads(I think Friends was the only one that found a way to keep it from happening).

Also because I'd seen it done well SO MANY times in fic, I hate to believe the creators don't know their own characters as well as the ficcers do (no offense).
I appear to be having a technical issue
This post I'm replying to is the most recent on your journal. The Pony Pals one has disappeared from my sight. If I try accessing it on my cache (http://rabid1st.livejournal.com/207420.html) it says '403 forbidden', rather than '404 not found'. So it is there, I just can't see it!

I had thought my string of technicolour had got me filtered out of the post, because it was OTT. But you've since replied wanting to be the Crimson pony, so I'm not sure what's gone wrong.

Lisa