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rabid1st

The Essence of the Humperdinck!

Or..."Wait, RTD! You got that bit wrong."

I was just talking to my buddy, Lisa, via comments on another thread. She said she finally saw The Princess Bride and nearly busted a gut laughing when the hag confronted Buttercup about marrying Prince Humperdinck. I said...

Humperdinck!

It's the ending that disappoints and can't be in character and even a child (well, especially a child) can tell. And yes, we are the vocal minority, booing the Doctor for his poor choice.


To paraphrase the Hag...

"You had true love in your hands and you gave up. Your true love lives. True love saved you and you threw it away like garbage. So, bow down to him if you like...bow down to the lonely god...bow to the god of broken promises...bow to the god of weakness and fear...bow to the god of putrescence. Boo, boo! BOO!"

Or put another way..."Wait, RTD, You got that bit wrong! The REAL Doctor stays with Rose."

Hee!

Rae

The parallels are uncanny.

nightbeast

2009-03-12 01:42 pm (UTC)

Westley cheats death because of true love. The universe is determined to keep the lovers separate. The show acknowledges that true love happens rarely, so kissing is allowed for such epic feats. They even had their own Impossible Planet with the Fire Swamp. You could even substitute "As you wish" for "Quite right, too."

I'm sure I could fork out £10 plus postage to give a DVD to both RTD and DT. Or I could just send one to BBC Doctor Who in Cardiff and tell everyone to watch it. In the meantime, DT could get my humperdinck letter as soon as tomorrow, as he'll be in London to present Comic Relief and normally swings by his agecy to pick up mail. After all, my experience of Doctor Who is amazing coincidence. ;-P

Have you seen the tabloids today?

rabid1st

2009-03-20 02:02 pm (UTC)

Apparently, The Sun, also knows RTD's secret plan. Hmmmm!

Of course, this wouldn't be the first time some idea I discussed in my LJ hit the tabloids. Not that I think they read me...but I do suspect they hear about things the fandom is discussing and sort of make up a story. Or...your letter was read by someone in David Tennant's publicity office who is on the take.

Rae
also, willing to believe we really did/do know the secret plan. It is the logical way to finish all of this.

I've seen two Sun reports today

nightbeast

2009-03-20 02:24 pm (UTC)

You mean this (as opposed to Billie supposedly talking about the size of David Tennant's penis)?

**SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS**

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/article2329695.ece

**END SPOILER LINK END SPOILER LINK END SPOILER LINK**

I would be slightly concerned if the press read personal journals, and I think better of DT's agency. After all, they vet fanfic out of letters for fear of being sued if the idea is used without credit. Thus, it wouldn't make sense for them to give ideas away to the tabloids. It's much more credible that The Sun is catching things on the wind in fandom and running with the Chinese Whispers.

And here's another spoilery link - an RTD interview about how the story arc for the specials will pan out:

**SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS**

http://www.airlockalpha.com/news426157.html

**END SPOILER LINK END SPOILER LINK END SPOILER LINK**

But I agree with you, what we think is the natural conclusion to the story arc, it has to be done before RTD and DT leave, it will undermine their tenure if it's not done, and it will ruin the show in the future.

Lisa
Hoping my letter is passed on. It's much more important that it's read than fear of being sued

Every bit of the secret plan

rabid1st

2009-03-20 03:00 pm (UTC)

...is taken from canon. It is all part and parcel of RTD's story lines. Sure, we added some historical information, but it was nothing he didn't know. Therefore, there is no chance at all of anyone being sued.

If everything goes off as we imagined it, I firmly believe we are nothing but insightful. I have literally spent hours and hours studying the canon and I'm a writer. It would not be at all unusual for me to have seen what RTD was planning, given my obsession with Rose/Ten.

I tend to view our contact with him as an affirmation rather than a necessity...we were saying..."Look, RTD, we know you are better than that ending. Do not falter in your sense of what is right for this story."

I did note the RTD spoiler the other day...and I almost posted on it. But I just don't want the pessimists dropping by to tell me that it is all a load of manure and there's no pony in the room.

Rae
looking for her shovel...and completely ignoring the other obvious reason for all companions to drop by...that we are doing one of those regeneration retrospection thing where we see everyone doing fine and Ten is okay then moving on...PFFTT!

It's not just the companions returning. It's old enemies, too, and I sincerely doubt we'd have a life update on those supposedly dead if this was about Ten moving on.

What I like about the RTD interview is the inner politician. He effectively says the final moment is unchanged, except for where it happens and who is involved!

I forgot to mention, I included a oopy of the origami missive I handed to RTD to my letter to DT. I know you gave me permission to do so months ago, but I should have checked if it was still true. If you'd like a copy of the relevant bit in my DT letter, my email is still trinity_scully_20[at]yahoo[dot]co[dot]uk

Lisa
You can't produce manure without a pony

This is very true...

rabid1st

2009-03-20 04:21 pm (UTC)

...about the manure. I suppose the salient question is...did he move our pony?

As you would, you've focused on exactly the same thing I focused on with the RTD article...that he has not changed his ending...only repositioned it to deal with people being in different places. I read that as basically Rose and 10.5 are now in Pete's World and Donna isn't by the Doctor's side.

But one of the major loopholes in JE is that Martha could at any time stop by and see Donna...or spot her in the street and undo everything the Doctor did. Leaving Donna like that...with a time bomb in her head is reckless at best and heartless at worst.

If this rumor is true about the Master returning...we have a good chance of RTD explaining everything about Time Lord rebirth...how the regenerations and the man go on after death...because that would be exactly how the Master survived. It makes perfect sense for the story to go in that direction. And I do believe RTD was capable of designing the story that way...because he has already admitted that he designed the ending of the story at the time of Last of the Time Lords...with the hand in mind...then had this idea to make the new Doctor a more involved character. He has also stated that he would have needed Billie back to do whatever he planned on doing.

I hope we get our pony.

Rae

Also...it warms my heart

rabid1st

2009-03-20 04:27 pm (UTC)

...to see the headlines at Google go mad with the slightest suggestion of Billie's return. A rumor broke last month about Freema returning. And when I saw Billie and Catherine were doing Justin Lee Collins at the same time that David was in London...I thought....AHA! Opportunity for studio time!

But really...all it takes is the suggestion of Rose returning to set the rumor mill on fire. And that should mean something to the BBC. The Ten/Rose happy is the way this story should end.

Rae

Just to be perfectly clear...

rabid1st

2009-03-21 06:14 pm (UTC)

...YOU are not a mole for the tabloid press, right?

I only ask because the latest spoiler to hit Google News has a major Fob Watch connection. And I know how fixated you are on fob watch solutions. It is, of course, perfectly simple to do something without a fob watch. However, the fob watch is easily understood by the fanbase and so a good device to use...and every spoiler I've seen gives me more hope for an eventual PONY!

PONY! PONY! PONY!

:snicker:

Rae
who is getting far too euphoric...maybe it's my new drugs.

I wouldn't give the tabloids the time of day

nightbeast

2009-03-21 07:25 pm (UTC)

And I take it you've read my letter to DT if you say I'm fixated on fob watches? ;-) For the simple minds among us, it's the obvious and easiest solution to fix all the problems. I shall leave the timey-wimey solutions in your capable hands and throw myself on Occam's razor, or just stick to what I know. :lol:

Believe it or not, while I was waiting to check in at my hotel for the Hub 2, people from America were discussing Donna's fate and how it could easily have been resolved by fob watches. I just nodded in agreement and posed for photos in my usual attire. So it's not just us. 450 people in Torchwood fandom could well have taken the fob watch message home with them, and subsequently put it on the Internet.

PONY! PONY! PONY!

Ride off into the sunset with me

Lisa
Glad you have new, happy drugs

I did, indeed, read your letter

rabid1st

2009-03-21 08:10 pm (UTC)

Of course, I continue to put my faith in RTD and his personal need to correct the faults in JE. The fanbase sympathy is so focused on Ten 2 that I almost believe RTD intended us to be wracked with curiosity about him. And I am thrilled to hear that there are fandom stirrings about saving Donna via the fob watch. Of course, it is all about ending RTD's love story properly, as well...and I think the premise we discussed that Ten kept the love with him...because he was so focused on Rose at the time he cheated the regeneration...makes a lot of sense.

I feel, as you know, that Ten behaved with as much selfishness as Rose in that scene. It always bothers me when people lay the charge of selfishness or self-indulgence at Rose Tyler's door. The Doctor is equally guilty of wanting to revel in the pleasures of their love. My feeling is that he needs her very much...just as he said...he needs that healing. She might have made him "better" but he's a long way from healthy! And Ten 2 behaves, in my mind, much more like a man in charge of his emotions.

Rae

Should I be worried I own four fob watches?

nightbeast

2009-03-21 09:30 pm (UTC)

Hopefully RTD has been thinking about the natural conclusion to his love story since at least last October. But as I said in my letter to DT, I'd forever wonder what might have been if I didn't say something to him.

In a way, it's a good thing that fandom are wondering what's happening to Rose and the Doctor she got left with. Unfortunately, they are largely falling into the trap that RTD created with Bad Wolf Bay II. Namely, settling for the second best that life offers you because you're used to being dealt disappointment and have stopped looking for epic outcomes.

I was intrigued by your comment about where the love of Rose is, so I've just watched the beach scene again. In the list of how the Doctors are similar, one crucial thing he doesn't say is "same feelings." He's a man that is good at doing what he's told. I don't doubt that if Rose told him that she couldn't love him fully while the other one was out there on his own, he would help her stride parallels.

Of course, Rose's best moments are when she's being both selfish and selfless, like not leaving him in the Satan Pit. For our purposes, she is selfless by realising that neither Doctor is happy with their life, and is simultaneously selfish by getting them to swap into their ideal life and partner of choice.

RTD said the finale would be epic. He says it a lot, but I hope he means epic romance that is larger than life, rather than the too easily foiled plans of bad guys that are not worth rewatching.

Lisa

Just to prove my innocence regarding the papers

nightbeast

2009-03-22 10:27 am (UTC)

... and fuel my theory of 'amazing coincidence' when it comes to Doctor Who...

I have found some filming pictures from the Specials beyond PotD.

**SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS**

http://planetgallifrey.blogspot.com/2009/03/episode-17.html

**END SPOILER LINK END SPOILER LINK END SPOILER LINK**

RTD is such an attentive and clever boy. :lol:

Lisa
Clinging to her fob watch fetish

I did not click your link...I am not consciously

rabid1st

2009-03-22 05:51 pm (UTC)

...looking for spoilers. I am not against seeing them either...especially if they support my hopes for a pony rather than socks.

However, if this link leads to pictures of an actress we have already seen in the show, playing a new character, and there is a fob watch and book prominently featured...then...I've seen those.

Also, I will point out...that when a character revisits a decision he's made before...usually that is either to underline the correctness of the decision...OR...more likely because the character is going to face the decision AGAIN and make a different choice.

To me...that shot says...here is what might have been...had you made a different choice. This might be you and your granddaughter. Are you happy with the choice you made? And the answer, I think, is the answer that is within the book...should he read it, or remember what it said. He made the choice he made for two reasons...nobody else can do his job so he can't stay and settle...he had to go on...and he loved another woman.

But...if that other woman gave him one more chance to choose...?

I tell you one thing the fanbase might not have considered...if the Doctor thought the Ood meant he would soon regenerate when they said "Your song is coming to an end...one song ends and another begins." Then it is possible he also intended to do what the Master appeared to have done...simply NOT regenerate. The Doctor has stated...as recently as the last Christmas Special...that he has no reason to live. He doesn't care if he dies.

What if...? Rose being there is what stimulated him to regenerate at all...in Journey's End? What if he would have died in different circumstances? He says, "It's too late, I'm regenerating." And we assume he can't stop it...but the Master chooses not to regenerate...and dies. What if THAT is what the Doctor is now hoping for? What if he's hoping not to change but to die? And RTD lets the audience see that in the coming two episodes leading up to the regeneration. Then...Rose will once again give the Doctor a new lease on life. She does keep doing that.

Rae

Okay...the reactions are interesting...

rabid1st

2009-03-22 06:04 pm (UTC)

...to that spoiler I was talking about above...people are mentioning things about Donna reading the book and such. And really, that might involve Martha...you have to ask yourself...what if Donna does remember? How long does she have? And...if the only way to save Donna is to have the Doctor/Donna happen...would the Doctor be willing to do it? I think he would.

I personally think that sucking the memories out of her was the act of a desperate and slightly power mad individual. It was like...the last 15 minutes of JE was the Doctor trying to run away from everything. He just madly improvised...in hopes of saving Rose and Donna and it cost both him and 10.5 but they were both willing to do it. Again, I am set against your theory that 10.5 does what he is told.

I think that stormy shot of his face just after 10 says "Bad Wolf Bay"...shows that 10.5 knows what the Doctor is planning...and doesn't like it. I think he responds to Donna urging him to tell Rose about the plan because he's lost in thought for most of the beach scene...he's disconnected because he doesn't know how to stop himself from doing any of this. In other words, he doesn't have a better idea, yet. And he realizes what 10 is doing...basically, desperately trying to protect Donna and Rose.

Because if the only way to be with Rose was to kill Donna...I don't see the Doctor making that choice. I think Donna was caught in the accidental crossfire of the metacrisis...due to the Daleks trapping her with the hand. When the Doctor realizes this...if completing the metacrisis involves Donna dying...he would separate Donna from 10.5...put them on opposite sides of creation...Rose guarding one of them...and him taking care of Donna.

I think you could really sell this....as the Doctor making the wrong choice. Though, of course, I could be way off base and RTD has another plan entirely. Most likely he does...

But...still...it all smells like the fresh, grassy scent of PONY to me.

Rae

I have nothing coherent to say at the moment. Damn illnesses.

Yes, the spoilery link was about an actress we have already seen in the show, playing a new character, and there is a fob watch and book prominently featured.

This is my mind fog talking, but are you suggesting the metacrisis is incomplete, and completing it would kill Donna? But doesn't that mean Ten 2 will die because he's incomplete? Or is my concentration totally shot?

I understand the last 15 minutes of JE being the Doctor having a kneejerk reaction to Davros' words, and him desperately putting his companions in places he can't hurt them anymore/them being able to come after him.

Lisa
You said PONY so I'm happy in my mind fog

Right...okay...I too am very tired in the mind

rabid1st

2009-03-22 09:04 pm (UTC)

And after I wrote that I went straight back to bed.

But...it is possible that...the Master had to kill Lucy to create his second self. Basically that the Metacrisis happens when Time Lords share their regenerative essences. The Doctor gave a life to the hand...and later...due to being scared out of her mind...Donna started to give ANOTHER life to the hand. The reason you can't do this happy thing with a human is that humans have only the one life to give.

So, when Donna burns up...10.5 will be a new Doctor. But the cost of that was too high to 10 and 10.5...so they sort of mentally agreed to this plan to be in separate universes. I don't think they were happy about it. When the Doctor later asks Donna if she knew what was happening...Donna says she does...but she begs him not to do it...says she was going to travel with him forever...the Doctor/Donna.

All I'm saying is that is the truth...she was going to be one with him...literally. But she was going to die as an individual. It's a deal mad Lucy Saxon would have taken in a heartbeat...and it explains her shooting the Master. Shooting him started the process of her individual death, but not his death...because he was still alive in the clone. The Doctor is still alive in 10.5...because 10.5 is Eleven...his next regeneration.

I am saying...what if the Doctor has forced everyone to live a sort of half-life...in order to stop Donna from dying. He expresses what he does to Rose as "a cost"...telling her she must stay with 10.5 because "you have to." It is Donna who says all that guff about it being a gift...and Donna, I think, wasn't aware that she was dying until later.

Essentially, if this idea is the true one...what the Doctor did to Donna...shut off the process of her joining with 10.5...she can't remember him. If she does...she will burn...alone...because he's in another universe. I think he might survive it...just not be able to regenerate, like he said.

Rae
probably completely wrong about all of this...I think it isn't important that RTD do what I would do...except that he find a way to switch Doctors and save Donna from her dull and hopeless and likely to end abruptly life.

...Ten 2 is doing what he did when he formed...he's sucking the life out of Donna. Now, he's sucked enough to live a half-life...as a human with a Time Lord mind...but not enough to become the Next Doctor.

This theory runs straight through the idea of "The Other" from the book canon. It says simply...that before there was OUR Doctor...there was The Other Doctor...and now...there's yet another OTHER in Ten 2. A new man with all of the memories and thoughts as the previous Doctor...but in a new body...one created by the old Doctor...and Donna. Literally one song ends and another begins.

Rae

Quick thought before bed

nightbeast

2009-03-22 10:22 pm (UTC)

This basically means when Donna stands in the same room as Ten 2 and he starts drawing her life force to complete the meta crisis, Jack should be kissing her to replenish her?

EVERYBODY WINS!

It really would tie up all the... unresolved things from JE. ;-)

Lisa
The swinging fob watch is making me sleepy

Re: Put another way...

sensiblecat

2009-03-23 07:56 pm (UTC)

The idea of Donna dying to get Ten and Rose back together has always seemed rather beautiful to me. Maybe that's why I hate what happened to her in JE so much, because I truly felt she would have made that choice if it had been on offer, so to return her to her everyday life was a betrayal.

I would hate to see RTD's tenure end with the overall assumption that Davros was right, because when you think about it that destroys the show. The Doctor needs to have a companion. And travelling with him should be life-enhancing or why are we all watching? What are we telling our kids if getting involved with this amazing person ruins people's lives? If we really believe that we shouldn't let them watch, it seems to me.

Companion death is a very tricky thing to pull off and I wonder whether it explains the rather odd way they've handled Donna in the spin-off media. Merchandise with Doctor/Martha is still all over the shops, yet Donna only got a handful of novels. It could be that she's being eased out of people's affections so that it won't be as shocking if/when she does die.

I'm interested that none of the spoilers mention Jack. I wonder if they're going to write him out in the next Torchwood story? Not quite sure what they'll do about the Face of Boe, but in a way, death would be a positive outcome for him and absolve Rose from what she unwittingly did.

(I've written at some length about the bookshop scene on my LJ - there are no spoilers you don't already know).

Good to see you, Cat

rabid1st

2009-03-23 08:39 pm (UTC)

I was concerned that I had spoiled you after I sent that last comment. I was so swept up in the news...and so used to the idea that I am NOT spoiled...and therefore cannot spoil anyone else...that I just gushed away. Only a few days later did it dawn on me that you might not have heard all of my news.

However, I consoled myself by thinking that you usually HAD heard news before me.

I think that there are many beautiful sides to Donna dying at this point...to create another Doctor. I see her becoming 10.5's second heart.

1) It really does allow her to be part of him forever...something she wanted...I mean...if she sort of becomes part of him...like a second heart. 2) It makes all of the Doctor's betrayals less severe. Because he was doing it all to give Rose and Donna and even 10.5 a chance at a normal life. 3) It makes narrative sense...explains why she was hearing the heartbeat all the time...why she was so tied to the Doctor...why the Ood saw the Doctor's song ending and another song beginning...and insisted on calling them The Doctor/Donna.

However, we must remember that while all of the details we are getting now make perfect sense to me...I, too, often insist on more narrative perfection than RTD. It is possible that all he's planning is something like the Caves of Androzani flashbacks...where we see all his companions living their happy lives and so he can regenerate in peace.

The fob watch/book photos and the Ood are perhaps the only reasons I have doubt of that exact scenario playing out. With Verity and the Ood...it seems we must address the Doctor's regrets...for the life he can never have. And yes, currently, Davros has been proved right. Sure, the Doctor might SAY that he's cured...and then become a new man...and off we go again...but that would make all of those negative Nellies right when they says, "Well, the Doctor can't love anyone. Can't retire. Can't live normally. Has to be a god."

Because...let's just finish it up properly...what that says is..."We are just too small minded to accept a life of possiblities and hope."

And that is no attitude for the Doctor to take. Let him be sorrowful and lonely...the only one of his kind...but let him live life to the fullest and be free to make any gracious choice possible. It is a far, far different thing to say, here is a man who loves to roam...than to say...here is a man who is consititional unable to stand still. It is saying not that the Doctor chooses to help people but that he is compelled to help and cannot stop himself. And that is not heroic...that is sad...even pathetic.

Rae
off to look at your lengthy entry on fob watches and bookshops.

One possible spanner...

nightbeast

2009-03-24 02:27 pm (UTC)

... in the works about Donna dying to make Ten 2 have regenerations is the domestic situation with Rose. Both Doctors would outlive her by a considerable margin, which is something the Doctor doesn't want to do. He would no longer have the 'dream of a normal death,' that Cat has noticed in her LJ entry as featuring prominently since Human Nature. Most notably, the final scene of season four, the drenched Ten alone in his TARDIS, had it playing.

It might be better for the franchise to keep Donna alive, just with her Time Lord memories safely stored in a fob watch. That way, should the BBC get desperate for spin offs and story tangents in the future, Donna would be the first proper female Doctor once the memories were safely restored... As resourceful as the Doctor but with the mortal risk of Sarah-Jane.

Lisa
Spanners, sshhh!

I've been thinking about that one...

rabid1st

2009-03-24 03:03 pm (UTC)

...Cat mentions the Fob Watch was lost...left with Joan. If that is true...or if you can only use them once...it is possible that the Doctor had no choice but to wall off Donna's memories. If he had some other device for removing them...it is possible Donna could live and Ten 2 could still be Time Lorded up.

I think we must draw a line through why Jenny wasn't a Time Lord. And I don't think we can say that non-Time Lord Gallifreyans would live much longer than humans. This didn't seem to be a problem when Susan married David nor when Leela married her guardsman. There was no talk of ordinary Gallifreyans having very long life spans. And, indeed, when the Master ages Ten he ages like a normal man would to 100 years old. He simply can't die as he would regenerate. The Master, on the other hand, was perfectly capable of just dying.

My feeling is that we could think of Donna as a bridge...being burned away...by the Metacrisis. But it might not be necessary to burn her away if the Doctor could take what she has of his time lord essence into the fob watch. Then Donna might be saved. I can definitely see the Master being drawn to Donna in her current state.

This goes back to sort of what I said to Cat...about Time Lord's being connected in their minds...knowing each other. This more than anything else might explain why the Doctor had trouble saying the words...out loud. Because he wanted to believe Rose was close enough to him to know without saying it. And, truthfully, since we didn't have her tell him it needs saying...maybe it doesn't.

Rae

... and make my 'amazing coincidence' squee

nightbeast

2009-03-23 03:56 pm (UTC)

As you have seen the photos in the link about fob watches, isn't it amazingly cool the similarities between the photos there and when I met RTD at the book signing? How fantastically brilliant that life imitates art... I can imagine RTD sitting there going, "Wouldn't it be brilliant if the Doctor went to a book signing?" And, of course, what was in the origami missive handed over at the Birmingham book signing is an outline and justification for how the remaining Specials will pan out. Hopefully.

Doesn't that do our ego the world of good? Homage to fandom support. ;-)

http://www.thewriterstale.com/news/?p=609

Lisa
Wondering how those photos got on that website, given who took them didn't even know about the website until I told her yesterday

Just so we don't appear to take credit...

rabid1st

2009-03-23 04:48 pm (UTC)

...to the point where the powers that be at the BBC make changes...it would indeed be the coolest thing. I don't think anyone at the show has more passion about it than you and I do...so...we are in the best of company.

And look at you! Right there with the man himself!

Did you send the photos to anyone? How are they there? Is this one of life's unsolved mysteries? This is an official site, yes?

Okay...okay...even if he read our origami missive...all we've said is we figured out his plan. That's perfectly logical given who we are...basically passionate and obsessive Doctor Who fans with time on our hands and a belief in RTD's storytelling ability. :grin:

Rae

I am happy with the coincidence of Doctor Who and my life. For instance, my middle name being Rose, having a singular mole between my shoulder blades, the majority of First Day Covers being stamped on my birthday, Donna being dressed in a brown pinstripe suit with a red top after I was photographed sporting something very similar with David Tennant, the Christmas special of a human dressing up as the Doctor, having the Doctor queue for a book signing about his life, etc.

I am not in any great rush to take credit for these things. I am merely happy that, in the back of the show's creators' minds, I have made quite a subliminal impression. It is not my intent to jeopardise a show that is dear to my heart and has given me a new lease of life.

In fact, I will happily support it with encouraging words, particularly when it appears to be struggling creatively. None of my words are anything new; merely bringing together strands in the show to their natural conclusions. Conclusions that are easily reached by the show's creators in good health.

Yours truly,

The Girl in the Costume


The photo thing on the official website is indeed a mystery. My Captain Jack is the original owner of the photos, and as I said, she didn't know about the website's existence until I showed it to her because her photos were on it! Paradoxes are very becoming of Doctor Who fandom... but it is more likely, as it is an open post on LJ ( http://todd-loves-mc.livejournal.com/116040.html ), that the photos have been swiped without being credited. Again, I'm not complaining to the BBC about it! Chances are, had we known about the website sooner, we would have volunteered the photos anyway.

Lisa
There's a good reason the origami missive of figuring RTD's secret plan was signed 'fan across the ocean' and 'scribble creature'

Well, this leads credibility to my theory...

rabid1st

2009-03-23 08:18 pm (UTC)

...that someone reads our journals. It could be an aide for the show or a web designer. Someone who the tabloids might ply for insider scoop and then be fed some load of hogspittle gleaned from LJ searches.

I know that my ideas will be poohed by people who stop by my journal from the major Who sites...and I wonder how they even know who I am. When I was a loud voice for Rose coming back...after Doomsday...and earlier when I insisted it was a love story...after Impossible Planet...I was warned by my friends, via email, that the fanbase was gunning for me and I should shut up and hide. I didn't, of course, and I was called out as a batchipper idiot.

And, of course, by the time the truth came out and I was vindicated...these same people had been spoiled severely and somehow couldn't remember ever saying Rose would never come back...nor how many times they'd called me a childish fool. PSHAW! This time...well...I went so far out on that limb that I fully expected RTD to cut it off behind me.

But...at least you and Cat and SusanB and Frodolass have been with me all along.

Rae
begging you not to send that letter to the BBC...just let RTD deal with them. I think he's going to do us proud. I hope so.

I'm not sending any more letters to official people

nightbeast

2009-03-23 08:41 pm (UTC)

That italicised bit was for the people that might stumble across this post, even though it's ten days old and we're intentionally hiding our new thoughts here, away from the pessimists.

I especially am keeping a low profile since the Hub 2. Obviously, my disability isn't apparent and those cynical few I poached long queues in front of would probably like to undermine my existence and squash any thoughts I may have regarding the show.

... and because I've got three LJ notices in my email, I'll answer the one about the signatures and Doctor photos while I'm here. :-)

I signed the origami missive 'fan across the ocean' and 'scribble creature.' I've only used 'the Girl in the Costume' since meeting RTD at Hamlet, because that's what he called me. First was mentioning it in my thank you letter to DT for making Shakespeare make sense. Then it was the dedication at the book signing. I've used it in my most recent letter to DT, a copy of which I sent to you. You'll notice I have as many names as the Doctor...

As for the photos, they are indeed my friend's, an exact match. But they have been cropped and put in a polaroid surround for the website. I know some of the Waterstone's staff were taking photos of the queue while they were handing out free coffee.

Lisa
Infamy, they've got it in-fa-me

I know I'm being overly paranoid...

rabid1st

2009-03-23 09:10 pm (UTC)

...about letters, but I don't want anything to rock what appears to be a boat we have piled into and are now sailing.

Ah, yes, the scribble creature. But still, he signed the book for you as "Girl in the Costume" and may think of you that way. I do think it is amazing we are surfacing on the official radar...and you are definitely surfacing. As for my putting together parts of RTD's story to make sense, it's like you said, we have the time and the inclination to do it.

I explained it to one of my RL friends this way...if I took a bunch of random scenes, sentences, characters and threw them on a table in front of RTD...he would turn them into a story. I know this because I would turn them into a story, too. And RTD and I might both come up with similar stories.

This is because we both seem to have that sort of EPIC mindset. We would make agreeable writing partners...as we sort of secretly were on Disheveled. But I wouldn't be a huge help to RTD nor him to me...except if either of us got stuck...then we would have the solace of knowing that the other one could unstick us.

If I was going to help anyone along to finding a story...it would be Moffat. Just as Moffat was a big help to RTD. RTD knows that what is coming up from Moffat is going to be completely different and fresh. Moffat's mind is different...he would write a story completely unlike the ones RTD or I would write given the same puzzle pieces.

This is why when people say they will look to Moffat for Rose coming back...or to tie up any of RTD's loose ends, I scoff. Moffat, as you said in your letter, will write stories full of high adventure and shallow romance and his Doctor will click his fingers to open the TARDIS.

This may well be something I could enjoy...I am set to have a good time of it...and be scared by new monsters...IF...IF...I believe RTD's story is finished. If Ten has found peace and lived out a life with Rose.

In fact, I could easily see the Doctor seeking the High Adventure of Space Piracy and Rebellion after a lifetime of domesticity. But I cannot see nor even abide him jollying along in the face of so very much loss and loneliness. It's pathetic not heroic.

Rather like a 45ish, twice divorced man with thinning hair, sporting gold chains and trying to pick up girls half his age. Saying things like, "I'll never grow up" and acting the right old fool. This should not be what we get from the Doctor...that he looks like a little boy (*cough* Matt Smith *cough*) because he's trying desparately to appeal to the young crowd when his attitude is more pathetic than heroic.

Rae




I think a little paranoia is a good thing at the moment. The show hangs in a delicate balance at the moment, and we hope it can be saved by drawing things to their natural conclusions. I wouldn't want to rock the boat when I'm not a strong swimmer.

Before I go to bed, the final paragraph reminded me of a line I read recently in fandom. It was about Turn Left being nominated for a Hugo award, and some argued it should have been Moffat's two parter instead. A commenter said, "You mean the one where the Doctor snapped his fingers and opened River Song's legs?"

... I laughed more than was strictly necessary. ;-)

Lisa
May need brain bleach for that image so close to bed time


I thought Moffat's two parter...

rabid1st

2009-03-23 10:34 pm (UTC)

...WAS nominated. I believe Turn Left will win the HUGO award...and rather than Moffat's two parter...I would have nominated Midnight...which was brilliant. Moffat's two parter was, once again, very dependent on a Mary Sue and lots of little clues which he may or may not ever give us a satisfactory answer about...like the name thing. I mean, he makes this reference in Empty Child and in Girl in the Fireplace to the Doctor's past...but one wonders if he is ever going to give us this past.

I think Moffat is much like Chris Carter or Abrhams of Lost, in that he thinks he can go on tossing out cryptic clues and thereby create a mythology. Not realizing that one day it must all make sense or people will get bored with cryptic. On a show like Doctor Who...you do have to be careful of what you nail down...because the more you throw out there the more you limit the character. This is part of what I think people don't realize about Rose...if we make Rose a perpetual companion...and she isn't something like...the biocircuit of the TARDIS...then eventually the show grows stale.

BUT...if we make her something the Doctor MUST deny himself...we also limit him. Rose is this love story that she is...and if they honor the love...then she becomes part of the mythology...rather than an unanswered question that is limiting the Doctor's future choices.

If we say...this is his name...and he can't love an Human...can't live a certain life...then we are limiting his possiblities. If we say...this is the Earth girl he loved...then that is all she is. Yes, she's part of him...people would have to swallow that...but he's going on beyond that point...moving forward after an experience. Loving someone is something in his past from then on...not something he has yet to do.

Rae

Oh...and how could I forget..

rabid1st

2009-03-23 08:19 pm (UTC)

RTD turned out to be on our side, too. In his book, he said, just what we said...that it didn't work on the beach and no way would Rose ever love Ten 2. Let's hope, if we had influence, we had it in support of his own instincts to fix this story in the specials.

Rae

Re: ... and make my 'amazing coincidence' squee

sensiblecat

2009-03-23 07:48 pm (UTC)

What struck me about those pictures of you, Lisa, was how accurately you've channeled the Doctor, the way he stands and the particular tilt of the chin. I expect that's why they stuck in someone's mind.

There's also a nice picture of you with DT in the guest book at Ty Rosa in Cardiff...probably one of my favourite guest houses.

One doesn't like to boast about these things...

nightbeast

2009-03-23 08:12 pm (UTC)

... but I have had a lot of practice in assuming the Doctor's stance. :lol: The photo on TWT website is me giving the bouncer a 'bitch, please' look for telling us we can't have a photo.

It is subliminal integration on my part. I put the signature coat on, and I can't help but have a bounce in my step or manage to keep my tongue contained. Other people who have put on 'the coat' have had a similar response. The best thing is, when I met David Tennant, we started matching each other's body language, because that's what you do when you want to perpetuate an encounter!

Ty Rosa is a fantastic guest house. I advertise them on my journal profile. I've also seen the picture you're referring to in the guest book, with arrows pointing out who's who. Apparently, it's shown to all the guests that show an interest in Who and Torchwood. A fair few people assume it's an official photograph from the press, but it is from my lowly camera that I still use. Of course, there is a photo in BBC Doctor Who taken by the crew of just me and then of us together, but I doubt we'll ever see that.

Lisa
I need to be 10" taller

What I was wondering was...

rabid1st

2009-03-23 08:24 pm (UTC)

...do you think someone else took pictures of you for the website? Or is it the exact picture from a polaroid type camera that your friend has? From your friend's LJ is very interesting.

Anyway...yes...major coincidences abound around you Lisa...and I do know you signed the missive Girl in the Costume for a reason. But you are known far and wide as that girl, it seems. I know, should I ever meet RTD, I'm going to introduce myself as "the friend across the pond" of the "girl in the costume."

:snicker:

Rae

RTD has been interviewed about the Specials by SFX mag this week. Interesting (non-spoilery) points:

He says that when the Ood prophecied the change in the Doctor's song coming soon, Ten interpreted that as he would soon be regenerating and it has haunted him and affected his actions ever since. That would possibly explain the motivation behind his treatment of Rose in JE. It also shows that, even if Moff tried to persuade DT to change his mind, he had made up his mind to leave alongside RTD et al at an early stage in the filming of S4.

RTD says he has always known exactly how Ten's regeneration would happen, right down to his last words, and he hasn't changed it. He has now written the episode and it will be directed by Euros Lynn.

After the Easter Special, there will be no more until Xmas. There will then be a three-part story in all but name. And it will be huge.

My money is on the first part going out Xmas day and the other two New Years Eve/Day.

S5 will take up the story seconds after the end of Ten's last episode.

So I think there is a plan, and there always has been a plan. Whether we like it or not is, of course, another matter. But it's interesting that in all four series, RTD has gravitated towards finishing with a three-parter. In S1 and S2 the Christmas Special was, in effect, Part Three of the finale. In S3 and S4, "Utopia" and "Turn Left" were character development stories that put important relationships in place before the spectacle of the finale. It seems that the 3-parter is an important feature of RTD's conception for the DW story arc.

The more I look at the production stills for POTD, the more it looks to me as if the Tenth Doctor is dead inside, merely waiting for rebirth and going through the motions of life. That has to go somewhere - it just isn't sustainable. It must be pretty soul-destroying to act and it's certainly no fun to watch, unless you're in it for the spectacle alone.

Well...you know...if they switch bodies/lives...then the next part will start seconds after Ten's leaving. That would almost be required. And I have noticed that we are postponing all of it so that it can be one coherent story. One of the things that I thought boded well for us was that the change had been set all along...that RTD would know what TEN's last words were to be...all along...and yet Moffatt approached David to stay on. To me, that does speak to the next Doctor looking like David...which speaks to it being 10.5.

I do think that David is quite tired of things. He seems enthusiastic but his Doctor does not. As you said, he looks tired of life. And he's made a choice not to have another companion. People will point out that is only practical given the short span of time...but it does play out in every franchise...books, comics...etc. They are defining Ten as this lonely, forlorn being...and Rose is the reason for that. So they are defining the depth of his love, even while denying it.

I do think that RTD had a plan of some kind for these episodes...I'm not sure exactly what sort of plan it was...but I do know that he talked it over with several people in a car...and, one assumes, David. And there are signs that he may also have discussed things with Billie. One thing of practical note is that this pushing back of DW...coincides with Billie pushing back Secret Diary to April. And David is filming in June for Hamlet.

I put no weight behind RTD saying things are going to be HUGE...because he always says that...and overreaches...and sort of disappoints. So, we will see if it is HUGE in my book or not. But I do think that switching Doctors would be HUGE. And I see no reason why Ten can't speak the same last words...something about the one adventure he's never had...dying...or going to live with Rose. Something about how he changes and yet, he's still the same. The obvious thing is to get him past his mopiness...and make him happy to be regenerating into someone new and different.

I do hope, still, that we are rewarded for our faith in storytelling and our belief that this soul-destroying stand of Ten's is going somewhere. My fears get the better of me sometimes...and I get riled up...but I am happy that RTD knows he's did something wrong...and I hope he knows how to fix it and that he must fix it.

Rae

The Sun sparks a firestorm of Google news articles with a story that could mean anything at all. However, I would like to focus on the fact that Billie's schedule was changed twice in direct accommodation of David's schedule. Also, RTD is quoted as saying that he never changed his plans for how Ten would end...he's just had to change where everyone is. And...of course...it did not slip by me that David, Billie and Catherine were all in London this week...in studios...doing things.

But truthfully, what interests me most about the rumor mill is the comments about John Simms...because really...the Master has already done what the Doctor needs to do...if you ask me. And I don't just mean in theory...he's done it in the past, too. He's switched his consciousness into another body. And you know what...even my buddy who is not a Rose fan...and is usually very skeptical of my grand plans...admits she would be okay with the body switch and/or 10.5 going on as Eleven. As long as it ends the romance...she's fine with it.

Rae
converting the Noromos to our Pony Pals Brigade.